1st survey (results posted 3/8)
it was open from 2/21 to 2/28
there were 902 responses
the purpose of this survey was to get a general idea of wincest shippers' consensus on certain topics, not to get 100% accurate results
most common response to the demographic question was: between the ages of 18 and 28, white, bisexual, and from the usa
most respondents started watching the show between 2005-2016, and said the moment that made them ship wincest was the pilot, playthings, or the finale
favorite season was season 2, and favorite episodes were red meat, mystery spot, baby, carry on, and swan song
favorite character was sam (61%), followed by dean (30%)
favorite female character was rowena (33%), followed by charlie, meg, bela, and jody
liked castiel in the early seasons, or didn't think about him that much
thought john could've been a better father in some aspects, but overall don't dislike him (56%)
favorite actor was jared (50%), followed by jensen (28%)
read j2 fics and ship them in a fun, don't think they've ever actually been together, way (37%)
ship something else in addition to wincest (56%)
most popular ships that aren't wincest were samcas, megstiel, wincestiel, samjess, and samwena
thought destiel seemed like an alright ship, but shippers ruined it for them (40%)
least favorite ship was destiel (48%), followed by samifer, sabriel, and samruby
wincest is the only incest ship they've ever shipped (49%)
saw dean as straight in canon, straight but sam is his exception in fanon (58%)
saw sam's sexuality as ambiguous in canon, bi in fanon (33%)
don't consider themselves closeted shippers (61%) while 32% said they do in terms of keeping quiet about the fact that they ship it
thought the finale could've been better, but overall liked it (44%)
would rather sam and dean have died together (39%)
biggest annoyances about the fandom were hellers, constant ship wars and fighting, jared/sam haters, spread of purity culture, and fans attacking cast and crew
have no preference when it comes to top/bottom (43%)
have read weecest fics (52%)
said ballad of the invisible boy and the last outpost of all that is was their fav fic
2nd survey (results posted 8/20)
it was shared on tumblr, twitter, and facebook
there were 505 responses (less bigger accounts reblogged it this time)
the purpose of this survey was to
were between 14-17 when they started shipping wincest
favorite character was sam (48%)
loved jared and jensen equally (44%). please note this survey was done in. april so i'm sure a lot of people's opinions have changed lmao
consider sam and dean canon soulmates (87%)
see purposeful incest subtext (56%)
most common responses about what's the difference between a wincest shipper and someone who still loves their bond but doesn't ship them is thinking about them banging, thinking about them romantically
most respondents were between the ages of 18 and 28.
84.3% of respondents said no and 12.9% said yes.
68.6% of respondents said white.
please note a response for she/her doesn't necessarily mean that person is a woman! the person could use they/them as well and/or be nonbinary :)
most respondents said they were cis.
the most responded option was bisexual, followed by straight. please note that respondents could choose multiple options, such as lesbian and asexual, bisexual and aromantic, etc.
(shout-out to the samdean lesbians ily ♡)
only countries with 5+ responses were included on the bar graph for sake of this chart being readable. respondents who chose to answer this question are from 61 countries total. countries with less than 5 responses are listed below
|4 responses||bulgaria, finland, japan, and sweden|
|3 responses||belgium, malaysia, and puerto rico|
|2 responses||the balkan region, bangladesh, colombia, greece, ireland, peru, portugal, saudi arabia, scotland, slovakia, ukraine, uruguay, and vietnam|
|1 response||thailand, israel, turkey, kuwait, pakistan, cyprus, kenya, chile, armenia, norway, romania, estonia, egypt, south africa, singapore, bolivia, czech republic, venezuela, and switzerland|
TIMELINE OF SHIPPING WINCEST
the most common answer was that respondents knew it was about brothers.
many write-in responses said they knew it was a show about hunting ghosts. a few people said they thought they would end up shipping deancas, and were surprised when they didn't
Cute boy horror show
I thought it would be way heavier on the horror aspects lol
brothers ft deancas later
It was the first episode of the third season and maaaan, i was hooked! So yeah, messed up brothers trying to save each other but DESTROYING the world in the process.
Probably the first thing I heard about it was how the women get fridged a lot
Scary just got sexy [promo video of winchesters flirting with ghosts]
I started with the pilot so there was no before
IT'S A SUPER HORROR SHOW!!!
my friend told me about destiel and tumblr only talked about them so i thought it was about them. boy how wrong i was.
i thoughts there would be a lot of deancas and i mean i really thought they were the whole show lmao
most of what I knew was that sam and dean were hot
Bruh I literally watched it based on trailers that aired summer of '05
thought it was about two boyfriends hunting ghosts, i was right
most respondents started watching the show between 2005-2016.
many write-in responses included people specifying they watched spn early on, then stopped watching it, then picked it up again in the last year.
late 2000’s when i was a wee babby then came back 2 rewatch in 2020 befoe 15x18
2020 December after seeing the shitshow the finale caused on tumblr.com
most respondents said while watching !!!!!
many respondents said the pilot, playthings, or the finale was what made them go "hm. they r not Normal Brothers." others said it was fanfic or discovering fandom and realizing hey this is actually a thing people ship?? and i can ship it too???
click the link below to read all the responses :D
i included a few of my favorite responses below if you want just a quick read!
first ep they seemed gays for each other 'easy tiger' wow
End of wendigo when Sam looks at Dean Like That
i read fics after watching the show n they were sexy
Remember in season 2 when Croatoan was introduced, and they thought Sam was infected and Dean shoved out all the other survivors, gave them his car, and intended to die with Sam than live without him? Yeah
Rewatching season one after years and being like hm. Their relationship is weird
s1x16 "Yeah, I don't want you to leave the second this thing's over. -- You and me....and dad. I want us to be together again."
The barn scene
not really it just happened while watching the show and watching Sam and Dean getting progressively more insane about each other
tHE SAMMY YOU’RE MY WEAK SPOT MOMENT ON S3
Accidentally reading a wincest fic that I thought was Gen. Changed everything.
Playthings omg u know the scene
it was an edit i saw on tumblr of dean and sam smirking at each other in wendigo w the text 'if he asked i'd be his' or smth like that. big OH
"it's a terrible life" did it for me
While I watching I kept saying "Oh no, oh no ohnohno."
no big 'oh' moment, just the storytelling, which gradually came with the increasing realization these guys are so wrapped in each other there isnt room for anyone else even if they wanted to
I knew of & was excited for the subtext before watching, despite me being like 'ew. god no' when my best friend asked me if I shipped them when I was watching season 1. It was really S2E11 Playthings that made me admit to myself that I was interested in the pairing, you like have to if you can't stop thinking about what would happen if they kissed in The Scene. And that's how my winter 2020-21 character arc was becoming an incest shipper after a lifetime of shying away from incest pairings.
a moment right after Sam's first death, that Bobby tells Dean the world is ending and Dean screams "then let it end", 'cause he couldn't care less about anything other than Sam. and it was reinforced in s8 finale
It wasn't a moment from the show. I loved their relationship since the pilot and was obsessed with how much they loved each other but i wasn't actually shipping them. It's when I started being active in the fandom and discovered that wincest was actually a Thing that I went ...oh? I can do this? and started reading fics.
The OH moment was the realisation that shipping doesn't mean I want them to have sex in canon. That wanting them to be together and no-one else between them is shipping. At that moment I realised I DO ship them. Hard.
reading a samdean fic out of curiosity . dean kept calling himself Big Brother and i was like oh ....... that’s sexy ..
I was watching the first season and fell asleep. Around this time I was trying to get into destiel but I’m a completionist so I had to watch from the beginning and had no idea what the show was about (more specifically didn’t know Sam and Dean were related) so when I woke up a clicked a random episode in season 1 and I was like “ oh they are such a good couple” then I heard Dean refer to Sam as his brother and the rest is history.
was in denial and then i saw that people shipped wincest and i just kind of allowed myself 2.... start seeing how insane they were.
chronic incest brainrot meant I shipped them five minutes in
i wish i could remember that 😭 but i definitely can say that the appealing to me was (and still is) not some particular scene or how they/j2 look at each other (though it definitely is a big part of why) but the fact that it’s two guys on the road completely alone and having nothing to lose but each other and god forbid they do because in that case the world can wait and actually it can stop turning and it won’t fucking matter because their worlds their fucking universes are each other and the only meaning of their lives is to be together and to love each other with everything they have consuming and possessing each other to the point where the edge doesn’t exist anymore and they both just continue to love love and love each other and don’t need anything else and it’s okay that they don’t fit in because they know they’re not your usual definition of normal but are absolutely fine with who they are and no one will ever understand this kind of devotion so why bother trying to explain? they know they have each other whether the world ends or not and if it does they know they’ll be together after
the gif of Sam and Dean walking down the hallway and Dean looks at Sam and smiles all cute at his tall babey brother and yEAH that did it for me
It's always been you..... and me.
"While binge reading the backlog of my favorite fanfic authors. A lot of writers who wrote platonic bros also wrote wincest. In the beginning I pingponged between ""Incest is gross,"" and ""OH I get it now"". Normally incest ships are unappealing to me, but Wincest is the exception to the rule. The codependency, willingness to sell your soul and burn the world down to save the other-- they're canon soulmates! they have no personal space! their lives are a shitshow where their only lifeline is their brother! they exist on the fringes of society! they cross moral boundaries on the regular! they fulfill multiple roles in each others lives (brothers, warrior bond/partners, friends, enemies, sometimes parent&child)! ....why not incest as another taboo they cross?
1. Their canonical and beautiful relationship. 2. The finale - before the finale I didn't ship them much, for most time I watched SPN I saw them just as brothers, still adored their relationship. But after the finale I fell in love with this ship.
all hell breaks loose. i love codependency
at first I was just like. I love their platonic intimacy :) n then I was listening to some weird dramatic indie romance song and was like oh sam and dean and maybe I would not mind if they smooched a bit
to likely no one's surprise, most respondents said seasons 1-5. there were also small spikes at season 8 and season 11. seasons 12-15 received very little responses; a combined 9 votes (0.9%).
below are the 18 episodes that recieved the most responses!
1. 11x17 red meat (66 responses)
2. 3x11 mystery spot (57 responses)
3. 11x04 baby (40 responses)
4. 15x20 carry on (39 responses)
5. 5x22 swan song (38 responses)
6. 2x21 all hell breaks loose part 1&2 (33 responses)
7. 2x11 playthings (27 responses)
8. 1x01 pilot (23 responses)
9. 1x12 faith (17 responses)
10. 8x23 sacrifice (16 responses)
11. 5x08 changing channels (13 responses)
12. 3x08 a very supernatural christmas (11 responses)
13. 5x16 dark side of the moon (10 responses)
13. 6x15 the french mistake (10 responses)
14. 2x15 tall tales (9 responses)
13. 4x16 on the head of a pin (7 responses)
12. 1x17 hell house (6 responses)
12. 10x05 fan fiction (6 responses)
episodes other than these at least one respondent said was their favorite episode:
1x02 wendigo, 1x03 dead in the water, 1x05 bloody mary, 1x06 skin, 1x08 bugs, 1x09 home, 1x14 nightmare, 1x15 the benders, 1x16 shadow, 1x18 something wicked
2x01 in my time of dying, 2x03 bloodlust, 2x04 children shouldn't play with dead things, 2x07 the usual suspects, 2x08 crossroads blues, 2x09 croatoan, 2x10 hunted, 2x12 nightshifter, 2x13 houses of the holy, 2x14 born under a bad sign, 2x17 heart, 2x18 hollywood babylon, 2x19 folsom prison blues, 2x20 what is and what should never be
3x03 bad day at black rock, 3x12 jus in bello, 3x13 ghostfacers, 3x16 no rest for the wicked
4x01 lazarus rising 4x06 yellow fever, 4x13 after school special, 4x17 it's a terrible life, 4x18 the monster at the end of the book, 4x21 when the leeve breaks
5x03 free to be you and me, 5x04 the end, 5x07 the curious case of dean winchester, 5x09 the real ghostbusters, 5x10 abandon all hope
6x01 evil on main street, 6x08 all dogs go to heaven, 6x20 the man who would be king
7x02 hello, cruel world, 7x06 slash fiction, 7x15 repo man, 7x17 plucky pennywhistle's magical menagerie
8x05 blood brother, 8x11 larp and the real girl, 8x22 clip show
9x05 dog dean afternoon, 9x07 bad boys, 9x09 holy terror, 9x23 do you believe in miracles
10x03 soul survivor
11x08 just my imagination, 11x09 brother, where art thou?, 11x20 don't call me shurley
12x03 the foundry, 12x08 mamma mia, 12x11 regarding dean, 12x22 who we are
14x04 mint condition, 14x13 lebanon
Mystery spot (sam going thru one of the most harrowing experiences of his life and dean not even being aware of the full extent of it)
Just watched Playthings last night and haha, let them like, kiss
62.1% said sam and 29.1% said dean. both sam and dean was not an option, but many respondents put them anyway. apologizes for not looking outside my sam stan bubble and forgetting that people who do honestly love sam and dean the same exist, that number would likely be way higher than 32 had it been an option. much love to all u bibros out there !!
the top 5 characters were rowena, charlie, meg, bela, and jody.
eileen does not appear to be as popular among wincest shippers as she is in deancas circles.
This show has such a tERRIBLE track record w/ women lmao why do we love it so much (ilu bela)
the most popular answer was that they liked his character, but only in the earlier seasons.
most write-ins said they wish he'd stayed dead after season 7 bc the show didn't see to know what to do with his character, and that hellers colored their liking of him.
Don't organically know enough about him (he seems funny! Like a really intense overpowered horse girl)
The character is fine, but both misha and hellers have caused any mention of him to leave a bad taste in my mouth.
I still like him even in later seasons, that's why I'm upset about what they did to him in 15x18 ):
i wish none of the angels were never introduced
Not my favourite character, but i really love him. Not the end i would chose for him.
I don't really have an opinion about him except he outstayed his welcome I think. By ~8 years.
he is there . yknow like existing
he’s great but i don’t love when ppl act like the show revolves around him.
think he's a fun lil guy. hellers are insane obviously but thats just as a group. i think cas himself is fine and his single dad angle with jack is good
most respondents liked jack!!!!!
some write-ins expressed a desire for better storylines for his character in later seasons.
who tf is jack
I think he's adorable but generally underused in terms of exploring the concept of innate darkness and control/free will/destiny, which was part of his original concept design and promise.
I don't hate him but I don't think he's needed
I like him but he got tedious in s15 and I honestly wanted him gone. But pre s15 jack I like. He's cute.
I was prepared to hate him, but I loved the way that Sam and Castiel grew in relation to him. They were his real dads. Dean was more of a cool uncle.
liked him at first but thought his later plotlines were badly written/executed, thus making me not care about him anymore
im not That invested in him but i think hes nice... also samjack good😳
i think he should get RAILED
most respondents said he could've been a better father in some aspects, but overall they don't hate him.
many write-ins said they saw him as an abusive father, but also absolutely fascinating as a character and important to the show and to sam and dean.
I think he was an awful father, but his damage is compelling so i like him.
I love his character because complex parental figure makes the coping machine go brrrrr. also jdm is hot
bad dad sexy
Is there an option for “He is an asshole and I hope he’s forced to confront the consequences of his shitty parenting and sees and apologizes to his sons for the damage he’s caused”?
I hated him for years then softened by the time he came back on the show
I mean hes a bad abusive father for sure but I don’t hate him because he’s a character and not a real person. He serves his purpose in the narrative and is an interesting well crafted character.
I think he is an incredibly complex character who did his best while suffering from multiple sources of PTSD. I wish they could’ve all avoided the pain they dealt with but John saved people’s lives and taught his sons how to do that too.
I think he abused Sam and Dean but abuse is complicated, Sam and Dean do not want him to rot in hell so I mostly want them to find some kind of closure in their relationship with him
john abused dean, so i h8 him, but jdm is hot and j3 are besties :)
John is trash but im a racoon babey gimme gimme
absolutely garbage dad, this is compelling, jdm if you want to be topped i am free on thursdays
49.9% of respondents said jared and 27.3% said jensen. apologizes once again for forgetting bibros in the 5 minutes i spent thinking up questions, much love to you all. 39 people wrote in both j2. had this been an actual option they likely would've gotten more responses.
other actors people said were mark sheppard, gen, danneel, felicia day, alona tal, matt cohen, kim rhodes, rachel miner, lexa doig, and katharine isabelle.
trying to hold off parasocialing, probably will fail
J2 I WILL NOT CHOOSE >:C
most respondents said they shipped j2 in the sense that they loved reading fics and watching panel videos and thinking about them, but didn't think they were actually legitimately together.
Must Abstain From Parasocialising (but like they've fucked or really want to)
I want to but the wife hate ruins tinhatting :’(
yes and i for real think they r gay and they fucked in the past and they do fuck now and no their wives r not beards and they have all had great orgies claps hands
Yes - Have no idea what their relationship status is to one another, it hurts my brain to speculate too much.
no and the people who ship real humans make me wildly uncomfortable
i don’t actively ship them but i do read au j2 fics because the plots are amazing 🙈
i don’t think they were ever in a relationship per se but i’m sure they’ve hooked up a few times like bros do
I ship them & like. I have suspicions but I also think they love their wives and families. but like they’re a little sus they might have hooked up/have something else going on. idk man they’re an enigma but I kinda ship it! respect to their wives and families tho
OKAY SO I really adore their friendship and I feel like they probably hooked a few times, but Im not pressed about it. HOWEVER, if they were to come out as a couple later, I would NOT be suprised.
yes, honestly think they hooked up a few times in the early seasons, but now they are codependent friends (soulmates, platonic love). idk it's hard to explain
No but they really make it tempting sometimes, good god y’all
45.3% of respondents said they didn't think about gen and danneel much, but they seemed cool!
most write-ins expressed a lack of interest in the actors' personal lives. some said they found gen or danneel annoying for particular reasons.
Idk them, new here, good for them bagging their mans
i don't care, gen did a great job playing ruby, tho. I actually don't even know what jackles wife looks like
he is not actually married to a girl named danneel is he 😭
neutral on gen but danneel seems so fun like a straight best friend that i wanna go clubbing with
I honestly don't know almost anything about them, I have very minimal interest in the real lives of actors
I'm indifferent towards them. I already was before they dated and married J2. I don't think I need to worship them just because of who they chose to marry.
i literally have no opinion other than they're pretty
I wanna marry them please
34.8% said they did not like this man, followed closely by 29% saying they were neutral on him. in the previous question 33 respondents said he was their favorite actor of the cast, so "LOVE him" likely would've gotten more results had that been an actual option.
most of the write-ins expressed a dislike for how he pandered to deancas shippers.
He seems like the most chaotic man, neither love nor hate, more edging on fearful anticipation
I love Misha. He's a sweetheart and has helped me through a lot.
More than any of them, Misha has harnessed the potential of fandom in ways that benefit society. He's consistently himself and I appreciate him so much.
Since "hate" is a strong word I'll just say I have no respect for him.
I don’t know anything about him but he’s ugly
I hate him bc he goaded and encouraged shippers and honestly contributed to how fucked up they all got over destiel and though they annoy the shit out of me I feel for them being baited like that
I lost a lot of respect in the aftermath of the finale. He has done so much good in the world but I think badly underestimated how divisive it would become and how some of his actions offscreen helped fuel that fire. I wish he had been more forceful in quelling the ugliness that was being voiced by his/Cas fans.
He's certainly done some disappointing things, but they all have. They're humans.
he's on thin ice
OTHER SHIP OPINIONS
44.3% of respondents said they only shipped sam and dean, while 55.7% said they had at least one other ship. please note "ship" can be used in a very loose sense, and can mean canon ships like samjess or samsarah.
i tried to include popular ships as options, but please note that ships i didn't think to include (sorry f/f ships) had a way way less likely chance of making the chart. i learned about a lot of ships i had never heard of, bless you all. the ships with less than 10 responses are listed below.
|3 responses||donnajody, sammick, dean/donna, sambrady, michael/adam|
|2 responses||mary/john, samclaire, sam/amelia, samkevin, anna/ruby, sam/meg, crowley/sam|
|1 response||lilith/ruby, sam/jody, samdeanjess, onesided deancas, sam/any man that appears for 1 episode and flirts w him, anna/meg solely bc theyre my favorite woman on the show and im a lesbian, sam/dean/bela, dean/jody, sam/everyone, sam/gabriel/rowena, casifer, j2, jo/ruby, saby, deanpala, mommycest, sam/amy, debriel, dean/krissy, claire/cas, dean/claire, garth/kevin, samchuck, alastair/dean, cas/dean/jo, sam/madison, dean/bela, meg/dean, crowley/lucifer, ellen/jo, michael/lucifer, michael/god, rowena/crowley, bobby/rufus, charlie/jo|
this is different from the previous question because respondents could only choose one ship, and no options were provided. samcas came in at first place once again.
1. samcas (78 responses)
2. megstiel (45 responses)
3. deancas (37 responses)
4. samwena (35 responses)
5. wincestiel (28 responses)
6. samjess (24 responses)
7. deanbenny (23 responses)
8. sabriel (16 responses)
9. samruby (14 responses)
10. j2 (14 responses)
|7 responses||samifer, saileen, deancrowley|
|5 responses||deancassie, samjack|
|4 responses||mary/john, jody/bobby, samsarah, clairekaia, sammax, cascrowley, samdeanjess|
|3 responses||sambenny, daddycest, deanalastair, dean/donna, bobby/rufus|
|2 responses||charlie/dorothy, sam/dudes, deanjohn, jodydonna, deanjosam, crobby, michael/lucifer, dean/gabriel, charlie/her gf|
|1 response||rowena/crowley, samamelia, samclaire, casjack, lucifer/michael, ruby/meg, ships w gabriel, ruby/meg, sambrady, j3, johnzazel, samkevin, deanjack, deanbela, deancasjimmy, deankrissy, deanpala, sam/dean/rowena, samdeancasjack, deanlisa, jack/kaia, sam/rowena/gabriel, cas/lucifer, cas/mary, sam/dean/adam, sam/dean/meg|
40.1% of respondents said it seemed like an alright ship until extreme deancas shippers shippers ruined it for them, followed by 32.4% saying they hated it and it was a bad ship in every possible way.
It’s an alright ship s4 and 5 but then shippers and the writers ruined any potential and made it super Not good
I ship it, but I cant stand most of the other destiel shippers
I don't like it because Jensen feel uncomfortable about it. I think his feelings should be respected.
even though cas loved dean, i don’t think dean was able to ever see him as anything beyond ‘work friend’. don’t ship, don’t see why people would, but i don’t hate it.
I don't really see any chemistry. Them normies just wanted a gay ship that wasn't incest. No hate on deancas, but wincest chemistry is unmatched
I ship it but only onesided
I never got the ship, when I first found out it existed, I was baffled. This pairing makes no sense, has zero chemistry and certainly isn't visually appealing, so I was like, wait, what? Why? But then I thought 'whatever' and moved on with my life. Ship and let ship. But sadly the loud, obnoxious, delusional and aggressive dc shippers who attacked and harassed me, my friends and simply everyone who doesn't ship their weird little crack ship for years, made me hate that ship with a fiery passion.
I used to be able to see how someone would ship it, but in the later seasons the canon got SO bad, I don't know how anyone could wish a relationship on those two. Plus the shippers ruined it for me
I love this ship, i love dean/cas dynamics. But the mainstream destiel? God damn it, its crazy.
like they had 5 good moments but that's about it
shippers really ruined it for me, it’s an alright ship but I don’t ship it bc of them. I can see why ppl ship it but the deancas shippers make it feel vile by association
47.6% of respondents said deancas was their least favorite ship.
please note that "least favorite" does not necessarily mean hate, and also that sometimes it doesn't have to do with the ship itself, but its shippers.
other ships people wrote-in were metatron/bobby, dean/lucifer, dean/crowley, anything w cas, human/angel, mary/the boys, samwena, and deanbenny.
I literally dislike deancas so much because of the shippers. Like, i didn't care about it one way or another until the shippers ruined it.
every canon sam ship, sabriel, AND SAMIFER IS NOT A SHIP. that's where I get feral.
There’s lots of ships I don’t see the basis of, but don’t hate any ships. Let people ship what they want is my philosophy.
all of dese except samcas cuz samcas got a phat ass sometimes
u can take all of them except samcas pls ! thank u
49.5% of respondents said sam and dean was their only incest ship.
some ships people listed were elricest, cersei/jaime, jon/sansa, walkercest, defan, and cathy/chris from flowers in the attic.
First time lol, never saw it in me but hey-ho
i dont have any other ship excet wincest... am i ..what am i?
the reason i chose this "other" option is because i like quite a few incest ships over the years, but it's not because i have any kind of particular kink or interest in incest, so the third option doesn’t match my thoughts. it's more that i ship something because i love the characters' relationship and if they just happen to be siblings, it doesn’t bother me or stop me from shipping them
1 or 2 others but only other media where the family dynamics are as fucked up as this one
i don't Ship it. but amma and camille in sharp objects were inchresting....
seth and richie from fdtd have A LOT of similarities to sam and dean so they a smidge gay but no there are no other pairings involving incest that ruin me a 1/10th as much as sam and dean do
most respondents said they saw him as straight in canon (the show), and sam as his exception in fanon (fics, headcanons).
straight in canon / a million sexuality headcanons pinging back and forth in my mind
he is gay <3
LISTEN bi in canon but it’s a complete accident the writers didn’t mean to do it. Also bi in fanon
I think that Dean would have been an equal opportunity lover. I think he would be super curious and would have to try everything. However, in canon, wincest or not, I think that his world revolves around Sam and their relationship, again wincest or not, so much more than he actual cared about sex or finding love with someone else
bicurious in canon. like ik that’s an iffy word but like. he likes women but every once in a blue moon he’s like “👀 that’s a fine man” and then he buries that shit deep down. same for fanon but obv he goes for sammy
literally that thing from its always sunny - i sleep with women, but i’m emotionally involved with [sam]
Bi in canon / he's a dyke in my heart
He's straight but with an unhealthy dependency on his brother. I don't see anything else.
straight in canon / doesn’t define his sexuality in fanon but fucks guys
Repressed af bi in canon, less repressed bi in fanon
Honestly idk, I enjoy queering media so I can see why people think he's not straight in canon but I have no solid stance on it
I would rather see him get Eiffel towered by Sam and another anonymous man than him ever look at Cas- so literally bi /pan as long as Cas cries about it
the most responded answer was his sexuality seemed ambiguous enough in canon, and they saw him as bi/pan in fanon. respondents seemed more into the idea of sam being bi/pan than they were into the idea of dean being Not Straight.
(apologizes for this chart being difficult to read, pls zoom in!)
The hets don't get to have Sam
I think i can headcanon him as demi but he's still straight in canon and Im cool with that
Bi/pan in canon / ace in fanon
Ambiguous in canon/ bi/pan in fanon! <3
unstated in canon/whatever works in fanworks.
Bi/pan in canon / gay, straight with an acception, bi/pan, all good with me in fanon
straight in canon/ bi/pan in fanon but he IS the queer coded brother don't get it twisted
Bi in canon & fanon, but the other interpretation I find funny is “tragically cishet, over-enthusiastic ally”
sam is the entire lgbt at once
most respondents (61.7%) said HELL YEAH.
i intended this question to mean in fanon but i acknowledge that i very much did not get that across.
I don't personally hc it but I can dig!!
Not my read but I think Jared's answer was sweet & have no bones with others reading it that way.
I never thought about it, so I can't be 'HELL YEAH' but also, yeah!!!
I hc Sam as cis & bi wrt wincest, but for any non-wincest fic ideas/daydreams I hc Sam as a re-closeted lesbian trans woman
I don’t think he played it this way. I see Sam’s journey as sexuality focused and Dean’s as gender focused
I also like ftm Sam being he/him from any age
i like it but at the same time don't consider it canon in any way
most respondents either didn't care enough about cas to have an opinion on his sexuality, or saw him as on the asexual spectrum.
most write-ins said since castiel was an angel, human ideas of sexuality didn't apply to him. many also said he didn't have a gender.
I think Cas is still figuring things out
He's... not even human?!?!? 😭
do human concepts of gender/sexuality apply to angels??
that mf gay on human terms but i don’t think him as an angel really gives a shit ab sexuality- i also hc cas as enby
Ace and biromantic
They are an inhuman chrystler-building sized ball of celestial intent
something other that doesn't map onto human sexuality or notions of romance, because he's been alive since eternity, has no soul, and his only bodies are by definition borrowed
does cas fuck?
549 respondents (60.8%) said they didn't consider themselves closeted shippers, while 289 respondents (32%) said they did.
i tried to include as many write-ins as possible bc i thought seeing different viewpoints was interesting! so this section is very long :)
Coz I only realised I actually ship them seriously recently, gonna break it to real life friends soon (i know it's not that deep and they'll just laugh, one of them has shipped Thorki since like 2012 so ya know aha). Probably will make a new tumblr for SamDean focused content tho, don't want my current mutuals to know 🙈 plus the samdean tumblr crowd seem cool and want to make new circles
I don't post about it on Tumblr and am worried about getting canceled for it, but my old LJ is like a shrine to it and I used to be a wincest BNF. And all my irls know? So...a weird mix of these.
proship in the tweets, normie in the streets
i posted abt it when i still watched back in 2015 and my irls from then know but i prob wouldnt be very open abt it these days
on the internet not at all, irl YES LOL
3 close friends of mine know about it (one of them ships it too) and I have a side account to post about them
I kind of just enjoy any take on them that has their all consuming love at the forefront of things, platonic or not - I am open about that
I consider myself a closeted samdean shipper on tumblr w/ a side blog because most of my main-blog mutuals hate wincest shippers but also my irl friends know I ship wincest
I simply do not give a shit about who knows what I ship, but I do have a sideblog and primarily read fic
Yes, only some other samdean shippers know I ship, but openly say I don’t care what people ship
Somewhat closeted over internet, but VERY open to my irls.
I try not to put it on blast on my blog as I’m a little ashamed to ship it. I do occasionally post about it though.
no, i'm not super vocal about it it, but i post about it.
Only fandom Twitter & my husband know
I used to post about it on main back in 2014-15 but now I'm all secret-ish sideblog, you can find old wincest posts on my main if you look back far enough so it's not that secret anyway, all my friends know I ship it, I'm not ashamed about it or anything I'm just not a spn on main person these days and don't want puritans to attack me lol, so kinda yes kinda no, mostly no
I mostly platonic ship it, but you know. Stuff happens. Sometimes there's ONLY ONE BED.
im more of a platonic shipper but i do like to experiment with the possibility of them.. closeted, yes
i used to be open about it and then i left the fandom and when i came back it was so toxic i stopped using my otp tag or reblogging things that werent vague enough to be seen as platonic because i dont want death threats
I have a separate main account where I am extremely open about my incest obsession but I also have an account where I don’t mention it at all (also two separate ao3 accounts)
no. the few followers that follow me, haven't unfollowed me when i reblog it
i dont hide it, but I dont post about it either
Yes, I have a side blog for posting about it and am careful which groups I'm open with regarding the ship.
i wasnt closeted in the ~olden days~ but in the sense of my current blog i am now, though i will talk about it w close friends
closeted online but on thin fucking ice / my irls know (none of my mutuals were there for my og obsession but my irls were :( )
sort of? i post about it on my side, so its not secret, but i wouldnt necessarily post on main lol. i have a couple internet friends and one irl friend who are also on board, so its not like a deathly secret lol but i do feel a bit weird about discussing it openly. the shift in fandom behaviour in the last ten years is interesting, given as i remember being in the fandom when it was huge and accepted.
Yes I'm a closeted platonic samdean shipper
my irl friends know i do but I don't post about it on main cause i know it makes ppl uncomfortable
i don't often explicitly acknowledge it online bc i have lots of mutuals that aren't in fandom and i don't want it 'on the record', but a lot of my irls know, and in some online forums i'm very open about it
Yes and no. I post it, read fics, and just my internet friends (on tumblr) know I ship samdean. However, I don't post much because I don't feel comfortable with some of my followers and mutuals hating the ship.
Apart from reading fics I don't really engage with the fandom
My friends know and I'm working to be more open about it bc I want more wincest and wincestiel buds.
Not really, it I don't actively participate in fandom anymore. In my LJ glory days, I was a visible deansam shipper. My twitter is for work and folks who do not need to know I ship fictional incest so I guess I'm closeted now.
Yes and no I mean if someone talks about it I say I ship it but I also get scared to post about it
I do have a sideblog for wincest but i don't exactly hide the fact that I ship them on my main blog
my family knows, my friends online know, I write it but it doesn't go on my tumblr on main
i’m seriously undercover like i’m in wincest witness protection but i have two (2) friends who i can talk about it with
most respondents primarily use tumblr, followed by twitter.
other platforms people said were: facebook, instagram, livejournal, tiktok, 4chan, vk.com, and sina weibo
there were overwhelming positive feelings for the ending. this is very different from deancas circles, where most people hated the ending.
most write-ins felt this was the best possible ending for a show that had gone to shit years ago. a few people said they didn't watch it, and would never watch it.
it was dumb as hell but barn speech cured my depression
im not strong enough to watch dean die so i haven't seen it lmao
haven't seen it but it seems to be as stupid as i expected it to be
I loved the fact that sam and dean are in heaven together but as a dean girl, im very angry about the finale.. my man deserved so better and so did sam
I live in a universe wherein the show ended with season five.
i haven't watched this show in over 7 years :)
It took me a while to process, but then I loved it.
i LOVED it but more cas.............
It was ok. Didn't completely make sense but had some good emotional moments, which is about the level of quality I expected
i’ve only seen gifsets but i like how it made destiel shippers mad due to wincest overtones
IT WAS AMAZING. WINCEST IS PLATONICALLY ENDGAME! EAT SHIT HATERS !
i had fun but objectively it was a terrible episode of tv
though in the previous question most respondents said they liked the finale, many wanted it to end differently, with sam and dean dying together and going to heaven being the most popular choice.
some write-ins said they wanted an open ended where j2 could come back in a few years and still play sam and dean if they chose. others said they wanted sam and dean to either die together or retire together—as long as they were together. many, MANY, people felt like the show should have ended earlier.
always but given the circumstances i thought they did a pretty good job
Send em both to hell it would be funny
yes, I have a hard time believing Sam just went and lived a 'normal' life for 40 years, I don't buy it
I just think Dean should’ve had a cooler death and Cas should’ve actually been in the fucking episode lol
PERFECT - except old!sam hair
they should have aged them up a bit so we knew a few years had passed before Dean died, and I would have liked to see Dean having a good time at the Roadhouse until Sam showed up
I wanted them to finally find a balance between hunting and having a normal life
Ending of 15x19 should have been finale.
Kinda want the forbidden Kripke ending tbh
Should have ended like 5 years ago.
They shoulda died bLOODY mANY SEASONS AGO :))))
Yes, but in the way that I'd have liked the entire show to have been written better from 06x01 onward
wanted em to retire... but also i wanted em to die together
I didn't want anyone to die lol i wanted them to still be hunting on earth at the end
yeah???? i wish it didnt even exist fuck you why didnt it end on ep 19 i mean??? hello???? tho the very domestic scenes in the beginning were <3 amazing <3
I wanted Sam and Dean to die together and go to heaven BUT I was also satisfied with the ending we got. I'm not bitter or upset about it and was genuinely happy/cried.
Murder suicide pact
i wanted cas to be back from hell and sam dean and cas to retire
I thought I wanted them to die together but I actually like this ending better
I was so relieved the writers didn’t screw it up. I am happy with the canon ending
most respondents had no preference/preferred switching, followed closely by a preference for bottom sam.
write-in responses included people specifying they had a preference, but would read anything if it was in-character.
strong preference for bottom!sam, but i do like bottom!dean if im in the right mood and its written the way i like.
I am a strong believer in service top Sam, but it's mostly about dynamics, not the actual sex - I believe both of them get railed from time to time
I used to be a HUGE top Sam stan, like to the point where I wouldn't read anything else (weecest being the exception, sam in weecest had to bottom) but these days I've mellowed and I'm all about the switching.
it depends. bottom sam seems more canon but in fuck or die’s bottom dean is really interesting i think
This aspect is less important to me than the crazy love aspect of it all
if sam is your favorite, you likely like bottom sam or have no preference.
if dean is your favorite you likely have no preference. you're just as likely to prefer bottom sam as you are to prefer bottom dean.
most respondents (52.4%) said they liked weecest fic.
most write-in responses specified they would read it as long as sam was at least a certain age (usually 16), an option that likely would've gotten more responses had it been an actual option.
i think its interesting in a fucked up way to have it be a point of contention and one of the things that drives sam to leave, because dean won't act on it and sam is going insane.
not keen on smut (don't care if others are) but unspoken longings, weird undercurrents etc yes please
not usually my thing, but if the plot looks compelling i'll read
My one exception is candle Beck's I have asked to be where no storms - it is so good
Anything under teens squicks me. pwp under 14 squicks me. Stuff that explores their unique, upbringing and bond and emotional consequences I adore.
depends on the age/context, 16 is generally the lowest i read
Very specific thoughts! I can't stand happy, porny, angst-free weecest. It makes my skin crawl. Very wtf/how do i cope weecest I can do. I especially need to see Dean have some fucking QUALMS about it. Everyone else, tho, you do you, much love.
i read them but only fluff like dean taking care of sam or them bonding as brothers.
I think it gives fun and sort of sad insight on how their codependency could have formed and ways that they'd cope in their childhood - which canon STARVED US OF - though I don't really like smut of them that young its a bit odd
i invented it (jk, but i wrote at least one weecest "classic" back in the late '00s)
554 people answered the question asking for their favorite fic. click the link above to see a google doc of every fic mentioned by at least one person.
some said they couldn't think of a fic, but they'd read absolutely anything by [x] author. the specific authors people mentioned were:
candle‗beck, fleshflutter, deadlybride, waywardelle, nyxocity, dollylux, waywardelle, nigeltde , road‗rhythm, nutkin, amypond45, non‗tiembo‗mala , glowered, whisperedstory, valiant, homo‗pink, saltandbyrne, stormageddon, autoschediastic , dimeliora, kroki‗refur, Big Pin, Eugara, leonidaslion, theproblematique
below are the 20 fics that recieved the most responses!
(sam/dean, E, 281,969 words, 2013) This is a story of adolescence. This is a love letter for the slow burn, for Led Zeppelin, for the 90s. This is the first of two sets of stories about how Sam and Dean didn’t fall in love. They never had to. It was always there, this desperation between them, like a real, breathing thing. When they came together, it was inevitable. As sure as continents colliding, as the phases of the moon and the life and death of stars. This isn’t a love story, but it’s a story of love.
(sam/dean, Not Rated, 59,037 words, 2008) The world is over, and it’s a Winchester’s lot in life to cope with anything – no matter what.
(sam/dean, E, 37,4523 words, 2012) This is NOT just a smutty story. This explains why Wincest is beautiful, loving, and right. Ever wonder how Dean started talking dirty? The genesis is in the way Sam and Dean allow their feelings for each other to become physical. Sam is nearly 17, Dean is nearly 21.This story has dirty talk, all the feels you can handle, infinite love, well-developed original characters, and a rich plot that develops into a nail-biting narrative, with the best kind of hurt/comfort. SPOILERS for seasons 1-6.
(sam/dean, E, 48,000 words, 2009) Sam is trying to become the Antichrist in order to save the world. He has a small army of angels and demons, he has an adoring cult, he has a work of prophecy by Jack Kerouac, and he has Dean. Things are going pretty well until he accidentally signs Dean up as his Beloved Consort, a role that requires sex with the Antichrist on an altar. And that's when things stop going pretty well. Also, the soundtrack to the Apocalypse sucks.
(jared/jensen, E, 55,232 words, 2012) Jensen sacrifices like Dean. Jared angsts like Sam.
(jared/jensen, E, 186,000 words, 2009) It’s not like Jensen doesn’t try to fit in and make friends, he really does. It just seems like nothing he does is good enough for them. If he smiles they blink. If he speaks they stare.
And whenever they see him coming they get this panicked look in their eyes like they want to run away and they don’t even know why. A touching story about love, fate, destiny, and finding the one person that's made for you in a world that isn't.
(sam/dean, E, 76,886 words, 2012) Sam and Dean pretend to be gay lovers while they hunt a monster on a bus tour of Nova Scotia.
(sam/dean, E, 76,886 words, 2020) Sam and Dean settle into their heaven.
(sam/dean, E, 690,210 words, 2010) The same old Sam/Dean love story, with a darkfic twist. Sam grows up in a concentration camp for monsters, and Dean is raised as an only child and a hunter. Together, they make each other human.
(sam/dean, E, 56,923 words, 2015) Sam and Dean discover a useful, little, magical artifact. No one is forcing them to do anything. No one is going to die if they don't. They don't even feel a strange compulsion. But… it would be really helpful if they powered up the magical stone… and… all they have to do is kiss.
(sam/dean, E, 257,877 words, 2013) After angels and demons and things that go bump in the night, Sam and Dean want a place of their own.
Finding a place is easier said than done; and settling somewhere isn't taken lightly. They take a chance on the city Death spared because he liked the pizza. The boys settle in a Mexican neighborhood just south of the Loop called Pilsen. Sam looks back at how they got here.
(sam/dean, E, 378,629 words, 2013) When Dean goes missing on a hunt in New Orleans, John picks Sam up from Stanford to help look for him. (Pilot AU)
(sam/dean, E, 27,299 words, 2021) He almost misses it.
A beat passes. “What?”
That’s the face of twenty-four year old Sam staring at Dean with the eyes of the thirty-six year old Sam he left behind. Dean can’t get a read on him, on the expression there when Sam clarifies, “It was only seventy-eight days. I lived for seventy-eight days without you, and then I ended up here.”
(Sam and Dean settle into their Heaven—and into each other, too.)
(sam/dean, E, 19,301 words, 2014) Dean sees an advertisement for Sam's preferred brand of boxers, which claim that they're designed for those well-endowed in the genital area. Following this, Dean spends an inordinate amount of time obsessing over whether Sam's dick is bigger than his, and then just obsessing over Sam's dick.
(sam/dean, E, 33,234 words, 2012) AU: Mary never died and if the supernatural exists, it leaves the Winchesters alone.
When Dean Winchester was four years old he almost lost his younger brother for the first time to a fire. When Dean Winchester was eighteen he almost lost his brother a second time to a full bathtub and a pack of sleeping pills, citing some decidedly unbrotherly feelings in his suicide note. At twenty-two he's about to lose him for a third time to Stanford University.
He and Sam's therapist sit down and talk out the chain of events leading up to and proceeding after what Dean considers to be the worst day of his life. He figures out a few things along the way.
(sam/dean, E, 50,723 words, 2013) Sam Winchester lived the first six months of his life in a happy family; the next twelve years as John Winchester's only son, and the last decade as an orphan. He's supposed to die at twenty-two trying to save the woman he loves from a fire, because he doesn't have a brother to pull him back. But the night Sam meets his Reaper he discovers that Death is overly fond of pop-culture references, too beautiful to be real, and reluctant to kill him.
(sam/dean, E, 84,657 words, 2011) In Hell, people change. Or they stay the same.
(sam/dean, E, 294,212 words, 2020) Season 8 AU
When Dean disappeared, Sam drove. He didn't stop until he hit something. This time Sam doesn't hit a dog, he hits Dean. But with the way Dean's acting, there might not be much of a difference.
Sam wants to fix him. Dean just wants Sammy to himself, and he's pretty sure biting him will do the trick.
(jared/jensen, E, 112,000 words, 2011) Somewhere in the time between a handshake and a hug, Jensen Ackles and Jared Padalecki went from being reel-life brothers to real-life best friends, and complete strangers to cosmic soul mates, no rhyme or reason to it that either of them could ever see. Jared was everything Jensen was not: friendly, funny, and full of life; one in six-point-whatever billion the Earth’s population currently stood at. Life was awesome. Work was amazing. Everything was fine until Jared kissed Jensen. Everything was peachy until Jensen fell in love. With desperate times unexpectedly calling for desperate measures, Jensen called Chad Michael Murray for relationship advice – because being in love led to temporary insanity obviously – so it really didn't surprise him that he couldn’t seem to win when it came to wooing Jared. Still, Pisces must’ve been in a really good place in the night sky or something because suddenly, right smack dab in the middle of the miserable courtship of his co-star, Jensen discovered that maybe loving Jared was all he needed to do to win his heart. And luckily for Jensen, loving Jared was also the one thing he did best.
(jared/jensen, E, 71,898 words, 2013) Jared Padalecki is from a small town in Texas, has just graduated high school, and works at the only bookstore in town. He saves up six paychecks to buy a ticket to a convention three hours away, where he's got a photo-op with actor Jensen Ackles. Jared expects thirty seconds of embarrassment only to find Jensen's number slipped into his pocket. [Completed, sequel completed, ongoing verse.]
WALKER/THE BOYS OPINIONS
most respondents who are watching walker said they like it.
I would if i could buts its not shown here so im living through gifs
I want to, I REALLY WANT TO, but it's not available in my country 😭
I hope to watch it soon and am loving everything I've seen of it.
no but i plan to once the fandom decides it's actually good so i don't waste time if it sucks
no I have no interest in cowboys
no. jared has passed his dilf prime
I watched the pilot, it did not spark joy for me but I wish it well.
Yes, mixed feelings but I like it, yeehaw
Yes, and it is quickly growing on me. (code 1 for simplicity). I was expecting to support it cringingly but I think they're doing a really good job, and when COVID restrictions get lifted, I think most of the awkwardness will vanish.
most respondents said either they were watching the boys, or expressed an interest in watching it at some point.
a few write-ins said the show seemed too gorey for their tastes, but they plan on watching just jensen's scenes.
i dont want to look at jensen and feels emotions
I might, but if I do it will be because the plot interests me, not because I have a specific wish to keep watching Jensen
maybe... i only just found out jensen would be on it via this question so that makes me wanna see it more lol
Don't care about the show but I'm sure someone will post a compilation of Jensen's scenes and I'm gonna watch that
I don't really plan to right now but I probably will end up watching it. I miss Jensen.
I tried! Too gruesome for me but I'll try again when Jensen starts in it
I am tempted. So very tempted.
BIGGEST ANNOYANCE ABOUT THE FANDOM
yes, this page is long O_O
if someone said multiple reasons in their response, i split them into multiple categories. keep in mind that there is a lot of overlap between the reasons (hellers and antis, etc.), and that someone's experience might be different depending on whether tumblr or twitter is their primary platform for fandom.
1. hellers (304 responses)
turning everything in deancas
they’re so entitled and they treat the cast & crew horribly
bc they are so aggressive and mean in the fandom
particularly hellers’ insistence that destiel is canonically mutual
Bandwagon destiel fans that only care about Dean and Cas and get angry when they're not the focus of the show
tweeting the actors weird uncomfy shit
Really opinionated destihellers, they are the literal reason I couldn’t ship destiel and started to hate Castiel (I’ve started to like him a little more now)
destiel being pushed WAY too hard (i started watching for the show thinking i was gonna love it and then discovered i hate cas lmao)
hellers and their stupidity but they’re mostly kids so i hope they’ll grow out of it in 5-10 years
deancas shippers are annoying esp when they act like theres no appeal in wincest
I spent 7 years on Tumblr hearing our side call D-shippers delusional. I always thought, why are you picking on them, let them have their fun. Then I spent 4 days on Twitter and went, "Oh, they are delusional!" They are seriously disturbed and scary.
they are so busy declaring the canon straight man who says he isn't gay is gay that they miss Sam could 100% be bi and nothing in the show contradicts that
destiel shippers................................... destiel shippers
2. constant drama/ship wars (198 responses)
the constant need to be at each others throats
The rabidness of shippers on both sides, let people live for crying out loud regardless of who you ship its FANTASY
general ship drama, the carving up of spaces for either wincest or destiel :^(
The antis on both sides 😕
Everyone is very extremist about... everything
The wincest-destiel feud is the most brutal ship war I've ever seen in my twenty years of being in fandom, and wincest and destiel are my two favourite ships so you see my problem
THE AMOUNT OF FUCKING HATE FROM ALL SIDES !!!!!! YES EVEN THW WINCEST SIDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
literally never seen a group of people hate each other so much for no reason and I’m a BTS stan
How you can't speak freely without losing friends., and I see examples of that on all sides of fandom. Ppl blow things out of proportion if you so much as whisper something they dont like. :(
The in fighting, I wish there was more mutual respect, just let people like what they like.
how everyone has like beef on sight with each other like whatever. like it's cool but why
The fact that we're so divided, and feels like we're in a constant war with each other. The show is over, there won't be any new content to argue about, I just want people to calm down and be civil
People that pretend their interpretation is the ONLY valid one and everyone who disagrees is insert slur of the week here
Shippers are annoying on all sides. More so the destiel side but alas. Everyone needs to chill, read some fic, smole some weed, eat some ass and enjoy whatever is they like. Fandom is for fun.
the fact that its 2021 and we have a shipping war
3. jared and/or sam haters (57 responses)
people who hate sam/wincest are SO LOUD
destiel shippers and people who don't understand sam at all ((there's a big overlap))
Ignoring or baselessly hating Sam so they can pretend destiel is more of a thing than it is
ALSO THE FACT THAT SAM IS SIDELINED SO MUCH AND IGNORED OR CUT OUT TO PROMOTE DESTIEL WHEN THATS SUCH A BORING SHIP.
The people that are mean to jared publicly and online like wtf hes a human being performing a role, stop being so mean
How they use both Sam and Jared as their punching bag
hellers constantly trying to put jared down because they think he’s the reason their ship didn’t end the way they wanted it to
not realising sam is the worlds best boy
4. antis/purity culture (52 responses)
Like . Aggressive antis I’m fine if u don’t like samdean but like don’t send ppl h8
Fans who can’t differentiate reality and fiction and attack people based on their fictional ideas
aggressive cancellation of content creators based on their stance on destiel, resulting in 90% of content that circulates in fandom being about deancas
The fact I suddenly have to be in hiding or I'll lose my close friends+mutuals :/
entitled destiel shippers who think everything needs to be sanitized and unproblematic like yes babygirl sam and dean should go to therapy but they won't and that's why they're interesting to watch on a tv show that isn't real :)
How nasty and violent people are about shipping. I wish I could say "i'm interested in exploring the more intense, romantic/sexual dynamics of Sam and Dean's relationship, in both canon and fanon" publicly and not get a hundred death threats
That everything gets boiled down to who hates/likes what ship or reads what kink and it doesn't seem to matter if they're a genuinely good person.
5. fans bullying and attacking cast and crew (50 responses)
Fans are way too insensitive and deliberately cruel to the actors and crew members, especially over weird fandom drama. Like, this person online does not need to know your petty opinions! Please gain some perspective!
How much people force things on to the actors. Like, it's awesome the actors are so involved in the fandom, but a lot of fans take it too far. It's on the verge of harassment. And like, the super crazy destiel shippers need to calm the fuck down. Stop harassing the actors and writers and whoever because destiel wasn't made explicitly canon. Who cares if it's canon or not? That's what fanfiction is for. And like, all the people who got shitty about Dean not reciprocating Castiel's "love confession". Even if he'd wanted to reciprocate, it clearly wasn't the time for that sort of thing. Sorry, I have a lot of feelings about this.
lack of boundaries, sending hate mail/threats
asking them about ships
I feel so bad for the actors, for whom the finale has essentially been tainted forever by shipping discourse. No one can say anything about it without getting ripped apart, and I'm sad that after 15 years this might be what SPN's legacy is remembered to be.
6. extreme misha stans (34 responses)
they don't respect jensen
Misha really fanning the flames
7. people not understanding the difference between fanon and canon (27 responses)
people not realizing fanon and canon are different and thats ok
fanon has taken hold so strongly no one will hear anything that fits canon but denies fanon
That so many of the loudest fans HATE what the show is about.
the way that fanon and headcanons spring up with no evidence (and sometimes opposed by the show) and everyone treats them like fact (not just a Heller thing)
Some fanon versions of "uwu soft boys", especially when it comes to Dean
8. entitlement (24 responses)
its the entitlement—the idea that because they all see it, anyone that doesnt is either homophobic or an idiot, and that the show owes them something that was never meant to be there in the first place. (until very recently, of course.)
9. everything (21 responses)
Everything, most of it consists on a bunch of hypocrites that find everything problematic and are annoying. I only like the samdean fandom tbh
everything except the little band of sam stan wincesties that keep my little corner of the spn fandom afloat yall r awesome ilu
you are all so insane god bless.
10. wife bashing/tinhats (20 responses)
people who try to insist that the wives are “just beards”
both j2 and cockles
I hate hardcore honest to god tinhatting Because that would theoretically mean they think it's okay to out people and the world is owed "the truth" about private life and wtf, no. Im not with harassing people for ships or whatever. Shipping irl people is fine with me, so is writing fakey fake fic about them even if its inspired by some irl things. Not harassing or spilling real secrets that aint common knowledge.
disrespect for J2 and their families privacy
11. misinterpretation of the show (14 responses)
The destiel shippers that act like the show revolves around deancas and that somehow they were cheated out of a reciprocated love confession. like I do think it's horrible the way the writers ended cas' storyline, but come on we all know the revolves around sam and dean 😐
blatant mischaracterisation and misinterpretation, lack of reading comprehension in general
People insisting Cas is more important than Sam to Dean
Their weird interpretation of canon, blindness to the bad writing. They take the worst plotline from the writers and treat it like a gift
That most of the people in it seem to be watching an entirely different show.
12. top/bottom discourse (13 responses)
b*ttom dean stans who shove their opinions down top dean stans throats. Sorry u project so much onto him but he's fisted sam twice in canon so :/
People insisting on bottom sam
top/bottom debates like its some kind of morality issue.... some dudes just like taking it and some dudes like giving the end
the top/bottom discourse SHUT THE FUCK UP AND JUST LET EM SMASH
13. erasure of wincest history (12 responses)
Pretending wincest is not a cornerstone not just of SPN fandom but fandom history in general...
The growing purity culture/anti Wincest debates as if Wincest isn't the backbone of the show and the fandom
how people don’t know/won’t acknowledge how most of the early fans were all wincest shippers
that wincest used to be the predominant ship and there was no shame about it, but now it’s like a dirty little secret
antis that harass and shit on wincest fans when they built the fandom
assumption that spn fandom = destiel fandom
The way ppl outside of it (not in it or left a long time ago) will think destiel is a real part of it
how everyone thinks the whole fandom is Like That, just because they're so loud and rude
after 15x18, when people who I follow on Tumblr, but aren't posting about Supernatural, suddenly were posting about Supernatural and adding to the dumpster fire, that annoyed me a lot because it was clear they were just listening to deancas fans and taking their words as gospel truth. Luckily, there were enough samdean posts in the mix that calmed me down. So thank you, open samdean shippers! You really helped through that personal super hell.
14. ackles army/extreme dean girls (11 responses)
15. ignoring racism and misogyny in favor of non-existent homophobia (10 responses)
Ship slapfights & white fans ignoring racism and misogyny for mY gAyS
ppl who love to scream queerbaiting but brush off very real issues with the show like racism and misogyny, etc.
People trying to co-opt important social justice concepts like representation to further a dumb ship war
the super widespread attempt to pretend shipping/personal grievances w the show are actually about social justice . first of all ur lying second of all baby ur a supernatural fan willingly u cant knowingly live in a house built on sand and blame it for falling down
Conflation of shipping with activism and lack of shipping as homophobia
hellers insisting that the show is homophobic bc deancas never happened.... like yes the show is homophobic but thats not one of the reasons why
15. virtue signaling (10 responses)
the virtue signaling. its fine you dont ship samdean, but dont act like we aren't just picking up what kripke laid the “DNI” advisories everywhere. Those were not a thing last time I was into spn and they seem SO stupid to me.
Generic dean gifsets with "w*ncesties dni"
wincest shippers dni on random posts that are not even samdean suggestive...why??
people stealing content from wincest shippers
I wish ppl would just say like "dont tag as ship" instead of like. "wincesties die if you even think of interacting with this post" I can like platonic soulmates too tf
that Wincest shippers are treated as freaks and pedos by hellers and very young Sam stans
just the general toxicity of deancas shippers in recent years. Tumblr was great even around 2013/2014 was divine in comparison to now. I don’t see the point in engaging with fans that you don’t like by making “callout” posts—just block and that’s literally it! Fandom feels very performative in a way nowadays.
16. conspiracy theories (9 responses)
Destiel fan's "secret ending", #theysilencedhim, cast baiting them
people that extrapolate inane theories from actors not using social media cough cough
17. wincest shippers engaging with the hate (8 responses)
Hellers starting shit and wincesties falling for it every damn time like idiots
also i hate both the righteous and the purposefully unnhinged sides of wincest debate; i think you can ship whatever and still be critical of some aspects of it: no need to censor and harrass others for shipping but also no need to prove that whatever's on the table and it's fine, there are some limits and it's OKAY to personally enjoy shit and know it's fucked up
Then there's the Wincest shippers who've been shipping it for so long that they forgot incest is a fringe interest and people would have reservations/will legit never like it that have nothing to do with ship hate or character hate
SamDean fans who put their energy into combating hellers — instead of on what they love about SamDean
I also think Wincesties need to stop giving hellers attention. Let's just ignore them. They'd self combust if no attention will be give to them
People with good opinions paying too much attention to people with bad opinions and putting them all over my tl to drink on them but actually just giving the person the attention they wanted
18. sam vs dean or jared vs jensen mentalities (7 responses)
the idea that you have to choose between sam or dean or jared and jensen
that stan culture has seeped over into spn and fans now pick sides w either sam or dean when for me it’s about loving them both equally
People that are against either of the boys (I’m bibro)
the fact i’m in it
I think we all know.
Tbh the obsession with actors and their appearance. Maybe it's the lesbian in me talking but I am so tired of all the "oh god he is so hot look at his lips/tiddies/ass/abs/eyes". (Also JA is objectified the way women usually are and that is extra gross)
the glorification of abuse among the majority of ships(including samdean)
People's inability to acknowledge how fucked up Dean and Sam's relationship is. I'm not saying you have to ship them but there is a VERY unhealthy and disturbing codependency between them. and that's okay !!! That's one of the things that makes them so intriguing, but ignoring these key aspects of their characters and how they're written because you think that makes you an incest supporter is stupid and weak. They're not average boys with an average sibling relationship and they're not supposed to be. Reducing their characters in any way (whether to just adorable bros or horny brother fuckers) annoys the shit out of me
When people try to make generalizing statements about things like ships, shippers, characterizations, anything really
The obsession with the actors’ personal lives (I don’t want to know anything about them!!)
i hate how the fandom demonizes john to woobify sam and/or Dean, and demonizes dean to woobify sam. Like yes Sam is a perfect precious baby in canon he doesn't need to be woobified and he can make mistakes. They dont have to be saints to be liked... this isnt some morality-teaching kids show
people who excuse every bad thing dean does
people who started at season 4
people not tagging their things correctly
The mentality that being a fan means liking/supporting all the random extras who get venerated for being in 10/300+ episodes
wincest shippers who think the finale was great and make excuses for john winchesters terrible, abusive parenting
John Winchester hate. On the screen he is not as bad as people make him to be, so idk what’s up.
people hating john like he neglected two actually living children
virulent woman hating, especially towards mary
people not staying in their lanes
constant need to put people into boxes, clear split between shippers, need to classify people into groups
shipping as identity/ideology
jensen hate/attacking him for not liking deancas
The way Castiel behaves from season 6 to 11 , too much praise
feel like I can't talk to anyone about the show unless I agree with the whole gay rainbow stuff
worshipping the cast and thinking they can do no wrong
how desperate people get whenever j2 is on twitter
People acting like they are friends with the boys bc throw thousands of dollars at them at conventions. Fans acting like they are better than others bc they have more “access” or recognition than them.
pandering from the cast
endless endless kinks and bizarre stuff that makes it hard to find the fanfic I'm looking for (character-based stuff)
the fact that it seems like most people only ship m/m even outside of spn
hatred for/demonization of sam/glorification and idolization of dean
And like sorry Dean is way worse than either Sam or Cas and the things Sam are bashed for are NOT comparable to Deans abuse.
judging people for what they read/write/draw (as in underage, r*pe, kinky shit, whatever) let be people be
people who hate the post Kripke show yet continued to watch and complain about it
Failure to take the consent issues in S9 seriously
I sure fucking wish people wouldn't intentionally go out of their way to use new terms in order to avoid word filters
The "We WIN" notion coming from EITHER side. It's not a competition. We didn't WIN with the finale. It's not a sports game. Just enjoy what you enjoy and don't be a sore winner or loser.
How cringy it was on tumblr in the bad years
the fandom mentality- i like when it’s just ppl doing their own thing and experiencing the show how they want
why the wincest fics be 300,000 words long? That shit longer than the damn US constitution and I have the brain power of a goldfish
most respondents were older siblings, followed closely by younger siblings.
1 out of 5 wincest shippers didn't have any siblings so psst people who make those "you must want to fuck your sibling 🙄" posts, that makes even less sense.
respondents who said "other" said it got tricky knowing if they were an older or younger sibling when you factor in step siblings and half siblings.
the most common response was between the ages of 14-17, followed by peaks at 25 and 30.
I was like 14 but deep in denial so I actually started indulging in my wincest shipping when I was 19
At 15, even though I didn't want to see it, and then with significantly more enthusiasm at 30
Like... 12 I think? I didn’t even know what shipping was and I was trying so hard not to think about them LIKe ThAT OMG. The rest is history...
15 ish from the platonic soulmates side
idk but i remember having a vague memory of being a wee youngin and thinking sam and dean were like a gay married couple or smth desdass did not know they were brothers until years later
wincest shippers' favorite character was sam. the next common response was being a bibro, then a dean stan.
please note i (the person who ran this survey) have mostly sam stan followers so it was more likely to spread in those circles.
most respondents said sam has flaws like all the characters do, and they love him<3
ok i wasn't very sam critical until he left dean high and dry in purgatory because he hit a dog and met a mean lady 😤
Don't really think of it like that, I ignore canon that doesn't suit me lol
I think I understand the concept of tagging things as sam/dean/X critical for the sake of, like, warning readers but I honestly don't really understand the associated discourse. Being "X critical" has kind of become a dog whistle for warped or biased takes on canon that reflects more on OP and their dissatisfaction with the show rather than being any sort of commentary on the show or its characters, to me. I think that's fine but it's just not my relationship with fiction.
I often find sam annoying but I don't consider myself "sam critical."
I used to be. Related more to Dean and was always critical of the ways Sam inadvertly hurt him but one day I saw the light and went "wtf, I fucking love Sam and he was valid for everything he did?" so now I defend him tooth and nail
Anyone who even thinks about being Sam critical must perish for their sins
most respondents said he has flaws like all the characters do, and they love him. compared to the sam response, more respondents said they thought the time he fucked up simply made him sexier, and that it made them actively dislike dean
listen listen, i tend to prefer sam but i somehow feel more protective over dean like wbk he’s just a hole but the majority of his stans treat him like he’s just a part of their dry ass ship :/// but yeah he problematic but sexy what about it
dean has done a lot of out of pocket shit
the longer the show has gone on, the less i like dean. i actively dislike him
I think Dean's crossed the line a lot but I take it more as an opportunity for character analysis than dislike
listen am i critical of dean? yes. do i also think it's very hot of him to absolutely ignore his brother's wishes and free will? yeah obviously i'm not boring
Shhhhh we like him like that.
wincest shippers' favorite actor was jared. there was a big jump in people who love j2 equally compared to the people who love samdean equally, however.
the majority of respondents said they consider it canon that sam and dean are soulmates!
most respondents said
a lot of free responses said
idek where to start all i gotta say is 2x11 play things a lil suspicious 🤨🤨
I think it's more unintentionally but "erotically codependent" does get me thinking
yes on the entire show but it went HARD on s1-5
eric kripke might as well have incest stamped across his bald head theres no way in hell he didnt purposely throw all that incestuous shit in there i know a brofucker when i see one
was gonna pick the jokes answer but honestly how many jokes and wink wink nudge nudge ironic incestual implications can you put into something before it become purposeful subtext
I don’t think they really meant the depth of how fucked up they are but they also kinda intentionally joked about it and also kripke definitely did it on purpose
No, there's tons of subtext but it's 100% not intentional by the cishet dudebro creators
Yes, some of them are jokes, but others are actual parallels and I think they're to show that their platonic love is as worthy and important as any romantic relationship are for others...does that count as incest?
i think at first it was just jokes. but then as the story and characters developed and sam and dean were shown doing increasingly risky things to keep each other, i genuinely think by the last few seasons they were purposely playing up them being life partners. not necessarily incest, but they were so domestic in the last few seasons, and they were couple-coded a lot more, and that was no accident.
A bit of option 1 and 3. I think a lot of it is meant to be jokes. But there is definitely like, emotional incest? John made dean grow up way too fast, dean took care of sam And his father, he was a son and a mother and a wife (non-sexual ofc) And i think that definitely bled into adulthood. Sam and Dean don't act like normal siblings, if i saw this behaviour in real life id be incredibly concerned. but sam and deans relationship just.....transcends all boundaries. its beyond platonic, familial, or romantic. so i think its half jokes and half canonical incest, whether it was intended too or not since its not 'traditional incest'
eric kripke literally said ‘im gonna make them brotherfuckers’ and did everything in his power to make it happen without anything sexual. the show literally entirely revolves around sam & dean’s love for each other. if i could write the 100,000 word essay here i would
NONSHIPPER VS SHIPPER
the original phrasing of this question was "in your opinion, what's the difference between a wincest shipper and a nonshipper? where is that line drawn, how exactly do wincest shippers engage with fanon/see sam and dean's relationship differently from nonshippers?"
the definition of nonshipper i had in mind was someone who loves sam&dean's dynamic but does not consider themselves a shipper of them.
overall, we all have different definitions of shipping, so what one person might consider shipping another person might not.
below is a chart of what MOST respondents agree is what counts as shipping, obviously it's fine to disagree with certain placements, everyone's opinions are different & valid.
most respondents agree that thinking about sam and dean having sex or kissing is where it crosses that shipping line. however if that's not how someone engages with shipping in general then ultimately it's up to the person on how they want to self-identify and what circles of fandom they want to be in
alright so there were a LOT of write-ins to sort through. 36 pages worth. i counted every response as a "vote" as shown in the bar chart above but i cut out responses where someone else said something similar, so sorry if your response wasn't included. i highlighted points i thought were really good! :)
1. thinking about them banging
sam and dean can be as weird as possible to nonshippers and still call themselves non shippers, but once we get into “attraction” or them having sex on more than one occasion — that is where i had to be like...okay girl...u ship it. my first url was literally secretlyplatonicwincest. i was 16 and lying to myself.
honestly if you think of samdean kissing, sexy times and doing like anything kinda sexual I’m sorry but you ship wincest like samdean fucked up in canon sure but like sexy times means wincest. basically I think canon samdean are super fucked up and a lot of wincesties have so many in common with bro stans we’re basically the same but we also think samdean fuck
imo wincest shippers want them to bone. that's the difference. that's it. i mean i guess if ur ace and want them to be queerplatonic (queerfamilial?) maybe, then you'd still be a shipper. i know lots of non-shippers who recognize the weirdness of their relationship bc it is canonically weird. but i think if you want them in love/soulmates/fucking, you're a shipper, bc that stuff (to me) isn't cut and dry canon.
The line between sexual and non-sexual is really the only difference. We see them as totally capable of to crossing that line or at least seeing that there’s a line there TO cross, whereas nonshippers don’t think they ever could or would, the line isn’t even an issue because they don’t think Sam and Dean could ever fathom it.
Well there's more gay sex in our side
most non-shippers i met are very similar to us in the way that they love canon and want to engage with it rather than fanon. the only difference is, basically, that because of preferences and tastes they aren't interested in sexual aspect of samdean bond, but are interested in codependency and its effects the same way we are.
If you're up for them banging, then you ship wincest. imo that's the only defining criteria. if you're a hardcore gencest fan but skip the sex in wincest stories because it makes you too uncomfortable and/or only read gen, then you're still on the gen bros fan side of the dividing line, but it's nbd either way.
Honestly there's not much difference. Wincest shippers are just a tab bit more intense than non shippers, but they're not concerned with the sexual part of it. They're just as obsessed with everything canon that the show gives us. The line is drawn I suppose when a person thinks of them involved sexually and either goes eh, ew or hell yes! other than that, I think everyone can acknowledge, wincest shippers and non shippers that Sam and Dean's relationship is <333.
I categorize that it’s Wincest when they’re actually romantically/sexually attracted to each other and act on that. Otherwise they’re just Gencest. Or “weirdcest”, if they’re not attracted to each other but still do romantic/sexual stuff because it’s just another way to express affection/they’re possessive weirdos with no sense of boundaries.
Was a non shipper for 15 years, only become wincest shipper after the finale, so I can say with certainty that nonshippers still see spn being all about the two boys, just with none of the sex.
I think the line is super blurry. Because we have so much in common; I switch fairly often between platonic and non-platonic wincest shipping and in both cases the things that made wincest appealing to me (the codependency, the loyalty, the love, the trust) stayed the same. I think the line is sex. If it grosses people out to think about brothers having sex, they're platonic shippers and if not, they're non-platonic shippers.
I follow a lot of platonic/queerplatonic Sam and Dean folks - I love their idealized vision of the brothers, a softer wincest if you will. literally the big difference is sex. the omission of sexual intimacy. but besides that, not much different from wincest. they're codependent, they have an epic love story, they will always choose one another. I've seen non shippers go down the dark side too - like possessiveness - but wincest shippers just add on some heavy kinks.
oh i haven't really thought about this. i'm aro so i don't have a lot of ability to delineate ships other than "do they fuck?" so... whether or not they fuck, i guess?
wincest shippers are nonshippers who go on ao3 after watching an episode and read about sam and dean fucking, thats all.
Non shippers don't want them to do nsfw stuff but might want them as platonic brotherwives still
the difference is the butt action 💀
2. thinking about them in a romantic relationship or kissing
do you ever think of them in romantic contexts i.e. kissing, sex, etc.? you ship wincest
We think Sam and Dean are two seconds away from kissing at times.
uhhh tough question bc like. i guess if you view them as being romantically attracted to one another or involved in any way? but that brings up the question of what is romantic and how that would differ from their current relationship... it’s messy.
I mean... You just have to SEE or WANT them together, right? Don't need to read or write or anything, just have them as a couple in mind.
i don’t even think the brotherwives thing is a wincest thing bc they are brotherwives lmao but maybe if you want them to kiss/have sex etc. that’s a wincest shipper for me
In other fandoms it's easier to draw this line, but if a nonshipper likes to explore sam and dean's relationship in fanon the lines can get very blurred due to their canon codependent insanity. I guess the biggest difference is the addition of blatantly sexual or romantic behavior to fanon interpretations, though as a shipper I also like them as qpr.
wincest shippers actively want to explore a romantic/sexual attraction between sam and dean, while non-shippers prefer to keep it in the undertones and explore a more queerplatonic relationship between the brothers
i think the siren episode implied that their relationship involves sexual attraction, but i don't think that sex has to be the defining difference, i just think they're in love. i think when they look at each other they feel romantic love.
we (wincest shippers) like to see them fuck and maybe being all loveydovey with each other in a way that never happened in canon. Nonshippers recognize canon Sam and Dean's bond and genuinely love it.
I see them as lovers with no sex (canonically, at least), while nonshippers see them as brothers with no sex - and if you think about it's exactly THA SAME.
idk i just think they should make out
Once you want them to kiss you are a wincest
non-shippers can certainly enjoy the fucked-up dynamic between sam and dean, but I draw the line at wanting them to kiss
I think Sam and Dean are queerplatonic lifepartners in canon so the line is very blurred... you can have some weirdly intimate touching and maybe a kiss on the neck but I'd have to say if you think about them making out you're a shipper
Wincesties just make it more spicy, because involving them romantically opens a ton of different possibilities and it's pretty cool to explore all that in fanon.
i see it being less about the sexual subtext, but the romantic that separates shippers form nonshippers
I think both wincest and nonshippers love the tangled up and insane codependency between sam and dean a lot. That’s why we watch the show. I just think that wincest shippers like to explore a romantic and/or sexual relationship between the two characters in a safe space aka fanon while nonshippers don’t do that since they’re only into the platonic relationship we see in canon and don’t feel the need to explore anything else in fanon.
You know how people will say, like, "I love him, but I'm not IN love with him" to mean that they cherish and care for someone deeply and are close to them but there is that extra spark that's missing that changes the timbre of the love into something romantic? I think shippers think sam and dean are IN LOVE with each other, whether or not they sexually consummate that love or even really understand that's what it is, and non-shippers think they "just" love each other. It can still be a fucked up/unhealthy love, but it lacks that je ne sais quoi that powers the act of shipping, that deep, tugging desperation between them, the hot brightness of yearning that's like...active, consuming. IMO it's almost impossible to deny that they're in love with each other which is why it baffles me that there are non-shippers.
Wincest shippers interpret "whatever this is" something romantic, something deep and taboo that Dean himself can't quite name. However, someone who's a shipper would interpret 'whatever this is" perhaps as "cosmic destiny" "platonic soulmates" "trauma bonded", or something else. Both groups look at the same interactions, but it is our interpretations of them that differ. It's also important to note that two wincest shippers may not have the same lenses, as may two non-shippers. Everyone has a personal way they engage with media.
i have no idea i feel like maybe nonshippers r like: oh this is cool platonically :D and we are like: oh this is cool romantically and platonically(??) :)
3. don't know
No idea. Spn is such a big fandom and wincest is such a big ship that I think it's a little too varied to generalize along those lines.
I really don't know it seems to just jump out at you!
4. taking it a step further than canon. not necessarily in a sex/romance way but seeing that "love, family, whatever it is" as something special & intimate
I have honestly no clue mate, I've never tried to draw the line when it comes to shipping and defining who is a shipper and who isn't. I cannot say that shipping starts from wanting characters to kiss or have sex because that's not true for every shipper. It is just wanting to see and hear more than is canon, I'd say. Sam and Dean's relationship is already beautiful as it is, but I guess a shipper wants to have more than is already there.
I think wincest shippers are the only ones who appreciate how fucked up Sam and Dean's relationship is, non shippers like to perceive them as codependent platonic soulmates, but wincest shippers acknowledge how obsessed/insane they are about each other, being platonically in love in a way that surpasses being romantically in love
heart goes brrrr when the boys interact and show how insane they are <3___<3 but also just. picking up the insanity of their relationship and running with it and making it more extreme, as opposed to leaving it the same or downplaying it
i feel like sometimes nonshippers kind of either intentionally or unintentionally ignore the unhealthy elements of sam and dean's relationship so that they can go on about how they're totally normal siblings and anyone who reads more into it must not know how normal siblings behave. and like sam and dean have moments that are pure brother moments and feel like typical sibling banter, and obviously being willing to kill/die for your sibling isn't inherently weird, but looking at all 15 seasons, even if you don't look at them and think their relationship is so twisted and unhealthy that it extends into incestuous territory, you can't look at them and say they're just like you and your sibling(s) unless y'all NEED TO BE SEPARATED AND PUT INTO THERAPY. like they're canonically unhealthy levels of codependent and can't live without each other. real people like that are not well and need help. that's not to say that acknowledging that they're weird and unhealthy inherently makes someone a shipper, because plenty of non shippers do that too but it's this weird emphasis on the fact that they're brothers and so they OBVIOUSLY can't be into each other like that that stands out to me because like they're not normal brothers. they're weird. they're freaks. they need help. i guess just the straightforward answer to this though would just be nonshippers see the weird undertones and take them as canon presents them, just like 'they're weird brothers with weird attachment issues but it stops there' and shippers see that and go 'this obviously isn't going to happen on a cw show but taking this unhealthy attachment and isolation and codependency and pushing it a little further sort of naturally leads to that conclusion of well sam and dean have filled every single other role in each other's life... what's stopping them from satisfying each other's sexual/romantic needs too?' it's not normal or good or healthy but it's INTERESTING and looking at their lives, not an impossible or particularly farfetched conclusion to reach and i think shippers reach it.
i feel we see the same canon relationship between them, like soulmates love of their life they're in brothers with each other etc. the split is that we also explore them being as fucked up as they are in the show, but in a sexy way :) its only a stretch of the canon thing i feel
I think nonshippers draw the line at canon - they look at the show and don’t extrapolate the boys’ relationship beyond that point. I also think there’s an unwillingness there to see the characters as truly othered from society, like sure they were raised in a batshit way and have to deal with horrible things on a daily basis, but they still have the same morality as any other decent person. Which I don’t think is true, and I think other wincest shippers are more comfortable with admitting.
I suppose seeing the potential for a romantic relationship in canon - like seeing the aspects of romance, sexuality, homoeroticism etc in the text and taking those to their logical conclusion. I don’t think it’s as simple as reading fic, I think it’s just a matter of interpretation of the show. Idk if this makes sense D:
You’re a wincest shipper if you see Sam and Dean’s fucked up relationship and go ‘Wouldn’t it be hot if they were even MORE into each other?’
A wincest shipper also just FEELS their romance... it just happens ¯_(ツ)_/¯ . A non shipper doesn't read fanfic of Sam and Dean in any romantic or sexual way and doesn't think about their relationship beyond what is seen in the show. They aren't interested in exploring the relationship beyond the canon text, but that doesn't mean they don't love the canon relationship. Wincest shippers just feel Sam and Dean's soulmate bond more intensely. We want to see them more intimate with each other because of that bond.
nonshippers are just being held back by society's norms to fully embrace everything sam and dean's relationship can be
I would say that shippers are more willing to explore their relationship on a deeper level, but I have seen some non-shippers do the same. Non-shippers will (most of the time) look at Sam and Dean from one side, the platonic/familial side. Shippers look at them from multiple sides, the platonic, the familial, and the romantic. When I look at Sam and Dean I think about how, in this universe, they have managed to find a love that can't be defined in our society, not easily. I think they're too complex to look at as just brothers, and shippers are more willing to look at that because....well, they're brothers, and that's what stops people from wanting to look any deeper because of that taboo. If they weren't brothers but acted in the exact same way you know destiel wouldn't even be a blip on the radar, there would be so much meta about how much the love each other it'd be insane.
"god, that's hard for me to tell - because it's obvious if you want sam and dean to fuck and mack on each other, that obviously means you're a shipper - so then what of the people who don't want sam and dean to fuck but to still have a relationship where they kiss and cuddle and overall more affectionate, just without the whole romantic/sexual aspect. is that then still shipping? are they nonshippers? to me, the more literal version of a nonshipper is someone who views the brothers as is and i guess, never go further than what's shown on the show?
when it comes to wincest shippers, there's an emphasis of keep parts of the winchesters' relationship, the possessive aspect (from both sides) is elaborated and expanded upon, to more of a divine right over the other brother (sam wants dean's entire mind, dean wants sam's entire body). there's also the elaboration on the parallels between sam'ndean and random couples, and samjess, samruby, and deanlisa to dean and sam respectively. i would say nonshippers may see this aspect and either acknowledge this or completely ignore it. i could keep on rambling but this is long enough.
i think we just allow ourselves to view them outside of the confines of a regular relationship
I think it all has to do with whatever floats our boats. People have different tastes and kinks. But Sam and Dean’s relationship is so complex, I think it has multiple ways to be looked at and taken into perspective, all with one final truth and that is them being soulmates. They’re the clear, sheer, example that soulmates ARE more than romanticism, you don’t have to have romantic feelings towards another soul to love them that deeply. To me, love surpasses all human standards.
The difference is that wincest shippers put a romantic lens on the interactions between Sam and Dean, rather than a platonic lens like nonshippers. I think it's best explained by the "love, family, whatever this is..." quote (which happens to to be my favorite because of this ambiguity!)
I think the line is simply how far they would go for one another. Non shippers see the sacrifices and go, ‘they’d do anything,’ and shippers see the sacrifices and go ‘they'd do ANYTHING’
4. there's not much difference it's whatever labels u vibe with
don't think you can draw a definitive line. the water is extremely muddy when it comes to the differences between a lot of platonic and wincest shippers just because of how insanely weird sam and dean's canon relationship already is and I love that,, it's truly a testament to how insane this whole show is.
I think romance/platonic relationships can be hard to define, especially as everyone has their own unique experience with these emotions and that can bleed into how people see relationships in fiction. While I wish there was a clear-cut answer, everyone has different boundaries for what they see as a romantic action v a platonic action. additionally ""shipping"" itself can be very individual, with some people including all relationships as shipping, while others have a very narrow definition.
I genuinely have no idea and I think most shippers and non-shippers don't know either. When you admit these characters are each other's reason to live and love, where is the line between shipping and not shipping? It's easy for shippers who are mostly into the R rated/ sex stuff, but when sex is removed, things get blurred and are hard to define. I love that, btw. What attracts me to the ship is precisely the blurred lines, uncertainty, unspoken things that are understood or lost in translation, fierce love despite miscommunication, etc. BTW that's why I like the term gencest - it's a weird term for a weird type of relationship many many people are into and like to explore. It feels like a very helpful fandom term imo. I'd love to bring it to other fandoms as well.
Assuming this question means a non-shipper who adores the brothers, then a wincest shipper is someone who engages in wincest fan content (a tautology? lol). But even then the lines aren't super clear because a lot of non-shippers joke around about their relationship. Maybe the difference is that the wincest camp bring up sexual elements in a serious way, but even that definition is limiting because sometimes you're really just joking! Sorry for the ramble - it can be whatever you want it to be I guess! Another side of this question for me is that I think the love they have for one another is so large and unnameable that I think anyone engaging in bros content is automatically a "shipper" in some sense. Being a fan of their bond is not the same as being a fan of your average garden-variety family bond. Hope this makes some sense.
I think we both enjoy the same dynamics, their codependency and love for each other, but wincest shippers like to explore how those factors could lead to a few more wires getting crossed. I honestly think the venn diagram of wincest shippers and brother-loving non-shippers is very tight, and the line is simply drawn by the fan themself. It comes down to the viewer to decide if the way they see a scene has an underlying romantic implication.
SO many people say they’re gen fans that seem to ship it exactly the same way I do so... who knows?? I think we (like any ship) tend to focus on the parts of canon that validate our priors and ignore other parts of canon as needed. But we do have it easier because the relationship is the central focus of the show.
It's all about how a person identifies. Some people call platonic shipping Wincest, some don't.
imo the difference between a wincest and nonshipper isnt that big because nonshippers actually watched the show and picked up on the love between sam and dean just as much as wincest shippers, except they dont explore the extra addition of brotherfucking on the side. big soulmate love is still there (canonically!) its just platonic. think of sam and deans soulmateism as a sundae. the ice cream is sexy on its own but u have the choice to add any toppings u want
Wincest shippers are people in it for the sexual/romantic aspect of shipping, and non-shippers are more there for the platonic canon relationship. But there's a heck of a lot of overlap 'cause I ship wincest but I also just really like the show just being about brothers. This is sort of a weird space in every fandom and most of it just boils down to personal tastes and the circle of friends you make.
Wincest shippers exists on a spectrum and I think anyone who wants to call themself a shipper can. Some people wanna see happy romantic endgame, some people wanna explore their fucked up codependency, some people just enjoy the subtext. I know people who prefer the canon queerplatonic relationship they have who still consider themselves part of the wincest community.
I've seen a few non-shippers (some of them vehemently anti-incest ships) say things like "It's interesting to acknowledge that Sam and Dean aren't normal brothers and do have a very close and codependent relationship—BUT not in an incest way of course". Which is interesting. Don't know if that answers your question.
i honestly think the line bw shipper and nonshipper can b rather close, but i do think shippers are more likely to recognize that sam and dean are each other's most important person <3
It’s honestly VERY hard to determine because people’s lines of what they consider to be “shippy” are all over the place.
Honestly, I think the line is blurred, because I often toe the line between wincest and just unhinged, weird platonic soulmates. I don’t trust people who insist on seeing them as normal siblings with a normal sibling relationship.
it's really hard to tell lol, i see non-shippers saying the most fruity shit about sam and dean just for them to post wincesties dni a few moments later. how am i supposed to think you are anti-wincest when you just posted a poem about laying together with your brother in death and have a profile pic of dean holding sams face… 🙂 (not specifically anyone just examples of from what i've seen) but i do think we should respect nonshippers of course and not interact.
is there any line?
shipping is 100 % personal, so "difference between" is moot to me
We don't see it differently, we all love the way they love each other :3 (Before watching the show and joining the fandom and realizing I ship them I prolly would've said Wincest shippers must be crazy and obsessed w, you know, two brothers fucking. That's what Destiel shippers, the loudest of the fandom ig, were communicating. But of course Wincest shippers don't read the show differently than platonic Samdean enjoyers... I got to know this when I watched much of the show and constantly was like 'is that allowed??'. Like it's right there, this relationship between brothers is RIDICULOUSLY shippable. The point is that you don't have to make things up for Samdean, they're canonically weird and literally obsessed with each other and whether someone likes thinking about them in a sexual relationship Also, next to the already existing co-dependence, makes no difference 😳). But you know. Non-shippers (who still think Sam and Dean love each other an abnormal amount and are the focal point of the show. so like bronlies or bibros or whatever the proper term is 💞) don't want to think about a sexual layer to Sam and Dean. Or rather, don't want to think of them as lovers. Or rather,,,, fuck, I keep remembering V/@brotherwives and how they want to write platonic sex and reconsidering my stance... Uhhh so non-shippers don't consider Sam and Dean lovers in the classical sense of the word :|
sexual/romantic element I guess?
It's a very blurry line. Simply because what I see as shipping could also be considered non shipping. Like just the fact that the brothers have made the decision to be committed life long partners could be seen as "shipping" them, but that's the show and in the platonic sense that's what nonshippers see. But most shippers add in a romantic and/or sexual aspect that makes up the traditional "shipping" viewpoint. So in conclusion, it's complicated lol
im new to current tumblr (havent been on in years) and genuinely i feel confused. because there are gen samdean fans that post things that i think are legit wincest but their bio is like 'dni wincesties i hate you go die go to hell etc etc' and its really confusing. because i genuinely dont think there is that much of a difference between the things they post and just straight wincest. like we all know sam and dean are obsessed with each other and that it is so unhealthy. but they HATE wincest shippers. weird man.
I think its up to peoples personal decisions! Ive seen people who may be borderline or even over the line between shipping and gen and still call themselves gen fans/nonshippers and like......... who am I to burst their bubble......
5. have no issues exploring themes of incest in fiction
the willingness to explore dark and messed up themes and the ability to distinguish fiction from reality. non shippers seem to take real life morals and ethics into account when engaging in purposefully dark and horrific fiction
IMO the difference is we or most of us understand it's fiction and most fiction isn't held the rules of reality. Also nonshippers just see 2 brothers having an immoral sex life whereas we see 2 brothers who had a hard life where all they had was one another to depend on and truly understand the other.
Nonshippers just won't take off their I-draw-the-line-at-incest glasses, and I get it. They're still wrong tho.
my brain wont let me process these words but i can say that nonshippers r usually just ppl who r uncomfortable with incest ships
i think nonshippers maybe see the unbrotherly love but dont explore outta fear/judgement/morality, but wincesties have no fear<3
It really is just whether the concept of incest intrigues or repulses you. The relationship is unquestionably romanticized in canon. Shippers are just willing to engage with the idea it's sexual.
They have to put aside the brother's aspect of it, which is hard to do. I've had non shippers tell me that if they weren't brothers, they'd ship like FedEx.
6. being SUPER into the fucked up unhealthy dynamic
I think it's just a willingness to fully engage with the strangeness of their canonical relationship. Nonshippers look for the most normal parts of their relationship and tend to explain away how they're weird; wincest fans fully engage with the weirdness and extrapolate from it.
i think nonshippers are more likely to just not acknowledge some of the darker aspects of salmondean’s relationship. even if they’re character critical. and when they do explore those aspects it’s more from a fixing them angle than leaning in cause it’s evilsexy like a lot of wincesties like to do
We use their (incestuous) love to rationalize some of their actions, which leads to more complex justifications and reasonings about who they are and why they do what they do. That's the main difference i believe
i really can't speak for anyone but myself but i definitely see supernatural as a fucked-up love story. that's what the show's about, in my mind. i just think you have to 1. understand that sam and dean's relationship is absolutely unhealthy and NOT normal, and 2. be able to find fucked-up relationships sexy! & then all the wincest potential is unlocked for you
As you mentioned with the answer about the 100k word meta about family trauma and how that ties to incest, I think we see the nature of the Winchester family dynamic is much darker and more angst-filled than the rest of the fandom. Not to say we don't have plenty of fluff (I love fluff), but one only needs to take a peek at fics like leonidaslion's to see how we interpret Sam and Dean as being codependent and completely obsessed with each other.
I feel like non shippers see their relationship for the fucked up crazy that it is and go “oh that’s fucked” and feel like it’s a train wreck they can’t look away from. shippers see it and go “that’s messed up and I love it!” shippers love to see how crazy the boys are for each other and how far they are willing to go for each other.
I think we just see how intense their love for each other is. non shippers know the show is about platonic love (hopefully) but I think we understand their connection and want to emphasize more.
samdean have driven us shippers crazy cuz we see every little thing and we can analyse it as canon as well as fanon and there are 6392 repercussions for everything they do. nonshippers are just viewing their relationship from a normal lens. samdean 4lyf <3
7. actively seeking out shippy fics/art
Wincest shippers actively look for wincest content. If nonshippers see the incest then ʅ（◞‿◟）ʃ
Honestly I just started shipping them when the show has ended. I think that now I just really like reading fics and love the Wincest Twitter, but I think that nonshippers that love the ACTUAL show also must love Sam and Dean's relationship and dynamic just the same.
idk we may watch the show with wincest goggles sometimes so what we find gay as fuck they just don’t see it bc they’re not looking for it. we also read fics where they’re railing each other and discuss who’s the wife, dean pregnant and sampussy, that might have to do with it lmao
It depends on the nonshipper? Like if it’s just the general audience, I think they’re not spending too much time pondering S&D’s dynamic or even thinking too deeply about the times it gets Weird. Whereas other nonshippers who are actually in fandom I think are more cognizant of the subtext and suggestiveness around Sam and Dean, but for any number of reasons don’t want to engage with them in a romantic/sexual context—which, I think, is ultimately what makes a Wincest shipper: actively wanting and seeking out explicit romantic or sexual interpretations. I think it's to do with actively seeking out content (fanfic etc.) and engaging with the community on tumblr in a less casual way. I think nonshippers can pick up on the relationship cues but not necessarily engage with them any deeper, and that's fine!
nonshippers don't want to read shipping fic/content, that is content that is intended sexual and romantic in nature, i assume. but then again nonshippers kind of mystify me because when engaging with texts, engaging with the relationships portrayed in them is a logical part of that. it doesn't only mean writing that coffee shop AU fic of your favourite never-going-to-be-canon ship fucking each other (although this is mostly what people mean when they say they are nonshippers, i think). shipping also means looking at the canon relationships in the framework of the canon. if you ignore those (=if you don't ship), are you even watching the show/reading the book/consuming the content? so yeah, i don't really understand the term nonshipping for my own definiton of shipping. the lines between shippers and nonshippers are very thin.
depends on the non-shipper! it's possible to acknowledge that the show deliberately eroticizes sam and dean's relationship, to enjoy that relationship and want it to continue, and still not really be a shipper, so long as you're not seeking out (or producing) fanwork that turns incest subtext into text. but the line can be pretty thin, bc it's almost impossible to talk about the canon relationship without acknowledge the aspects that sound, well, pretty romantic! which is how you get this whole other contingent of non-shippers who deliberately repress the subtext and write about sam and dean as if they were "normal siblings" and not life-partners
imo in the context of tumblr specifically, good, smart, chill non-shippers don't look for shippy fics to read & are cool with shippy humor / art that crosses their dash because it's so close to canon anyway. unless they suffer from a purity culture brain slug, they aren't threatened or disgusted by wincest & can engage with it for crack purposes
"Bro I’ve been asking myself this for months tooo!! Cause I genuinely do not see sexual/romantic text between sam and dean in canon (or not enough for it to be textual for me, but I understand that they love each other the most and nobody else even comes close to what they have ) but I explore those themes in fanon. So Maybe: Nonshippers: audience first, engages with canon—understands that sam and dean are the heart of the story and that they are not normal brothers but don’t see sexual/romantic text between them in the show and won’t explore those themes in fanon. Wincest shippers: audience first, engages with canon—understands that sam and dean are the heart of the story and that they are not normal brothers and may or may not see sexual/romantic text between them in the show and is comfortable in exploring those themes in fanon.
8. wincest shippers' brains have simply ascended
we have seen the lIGHT
We see more clearly, other people are deluded and choose to live in ignorance. But that's their choice, of course.
we're honest enough to know no irl siblings treat each other the way samndean do lmao
Wincest shippers have more fun ;)
non-shippers brains haven’t ascended yet
we see the same stuff, they just suffer from erectile dysfunction and don’t want the world to know :/
the nonshippers are ignoring the subtext and also the actual text, like i don't care if the relationship was ever physical, the emotional incestual relationship is very fucking real
We're sexier. That's the difference.
9. seeing sam&dean as the core of the show
i think that, generally speaking, nonshippers don't see so much sam&dean's relationship as the main point of the show? they tend to see the lore or the characters by themselves as the main point.
Tough one. I'd say the line is based around how central the samdean relationship is to your understanding and enjoyment of the show. Shippers specifically enjoy actively exploring and engaging in the depth of sam and dean's relationship in and out of canon to an extent that non shippers just aren't interested in. I would consider romantic and platonic samdean fans to both be shippers because they want to actively explore the relationship. Non shippers, even if they like the samdean relationship, are more on the side of passively taking it as it is.
I think Wincest shippers see their soulmate bond as the most important part of their relationship. It transcends their blood relationship.
I think shippers see the intense emotional soul-mately elements of the boys relationship whereas non shippers don't!
We see that their love goes beyond just being brothers. They are each other's person; physically, spiritually, mentally. We see it, embrace it, and love it.
Romance or sex, dependent on the definition of Wincest (I've known several avid shippers that didn't/couldn't conceive of a physical relationship between the two, as well as several that shipped them physically but not romantically. Most non shippers draw the line at physical or romantic relations.
I believe that non shippers see their relationship as co-dependent brothers and that Dean raised Sam so it can't be sexual.
Non shippers don’t care as much as actual shippers do I think
wincest: they'll suck each other's dicks and enjoy it, almostwincestbutgencestshipper: they would suck each other's dicks in a fuck or die scenario but it would be as pleasant as unclogging a garbage disposal, gencest: they are completely irrevocably emotionally bonded life partners and have maybe cuddled once or twice, nonshipper: sam and dean have an incredible bond against all odds but I'm not interested in escalating their relationship beyond what we saw on screen
as someone who started shipping wincest on livejournal when the show first premiered, it baffles me that the wincest community and the general fandom now coexist on one platform. trying to navigate tumblr causes me TONS of stress—like i have to by hypervigilant not to reblog from a 16 y/o in arkansas who makes supernatural gifs for fun after school or whoever, and i HATE that. sorry that wasn’t even remotely an answer to your question :( i just wish there was less overlap between those communities in general
I think that ultimately their relationship is the heart of the show and whether you see it as platonic or sexual all spn theory is entangled with their destructive but compelling connection.
sexual tension/intimacy and non-platonic feelings of romantic attraction are seen by wincest shippers in the way sam/dean act and look and are framed on screen (personally i think it's j2's and the editing team in the early seasons' faults. if wincest was played by anyone else, there would be less shippers imo)
"Difficult question. I think there's 2 different angles here. Like you can define for yourself if you ship something or not, when I started watching spn, I was interested in the brothers' dynamic most of all, wanted more & more of it, & was just noting potential subtext. I only engaged with what was there in canon, & didn't count myself as a shipper until I started like daydreaming about wincest all the time & reading fic, a month later. But you can also read fic & not be a shipper? I read sastiel, but I don't ship that at all- thinking about sastiel doesn't emotionally grip me, I just read it bc it's entertaining.
My happiness with my shipping is rock solid because I don’t let what other people ship or don’t ship influence me.
idk neurodivergence? never met a neurotypical shipper.
i think we think abt these things too much, i think wincest is something you feel in your heart lmao
bruh i dont care about nonshippers
im high im not answering this